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[here_inmyhead]

It’s Time to Talk About it: Atlus, Naoto, and Transphobia

Goddammit, I was interested in playing the Persona series up until I read this. Ugh. Unfortunate Implications, much? :/

It's disappointing how heterosexual male bigots ruin things for everyone else not like them.

Edit: Spoilers for Catherine in the comments. :o

Comments

[levikitty.livejournal.com]

There is a fundamental flaw with this article. It makes too many assumptions.

Naoto is not a transexual. She was never meant to be a transexual character. She only gained that label because people decided she was one. Her story was about gender equality in Japan, especially the police force. People just saw "Cross dressing! Wishing I was a guy!" as automatically transexual, and that, I feel is way more offensive to both transexuals and women than anything the Persona games could have presented.

Naoto does not identify as male once in the game, and not once does her shadow say it wants to perform gender reassignment surgery on her. It only says "body modification," which for Naoto, can actually mean many things given her situation. (She's very short so it could be height modification, she binds her chest so it could be breast reduction, or it could be a sex change) Naoto only hid herself because she felt that it was the only way she could succeed at her dream. She comes from a famous line of detectives, she's intelligent and hard working, but she'd get written off in a flash for being a girl.

If you watch the confrontation with her shadow, it presents her main issue as not being taken care of seriously. In fact, the entire conversation is about how much she hates being treated as a kid. Then it adds "btw, you're also a girl so even though you'll get older, you'll never make it as a detective" which is meant to be the cherry on top, not the main dish. Also, the author missed the crucial point about shadows: what they say holds the truth, but they also exaggerate it, cloak it in theatrics and half truths because it's a performance for television. The "everything a shadow says is true" only goes so far because of these antics. It's true that Naoto wished she was a man, but she also doesn't want to actually change herself.

Naoto is a character who has been pretending all her life, and through the events of her social link. She resents the fact that she thinks she has to pretend to be a boy to succeed, but throughout the game, it's shown that she has deep issues with people brushing her off. Before she makes friends with the main party, she accuses them of mocking her when they tell her things that are, frankly, unbelievable unless you see them for yourself. She doesn't revel in it at all, and I personally enjoyed the fact that her social link explored her as a character as a whole, instead of choosing to zoom in on one aspect of her (struggles with gender and sex). The events of the game made her realize that she doesn't have to hide anymore, and with her newfound freedom, wants to explore other possibilities which, yes, includes wearing a girl's uniform. Of course she's nervous about it: she's never worn a girl's uniform before and it's in front of a guy she likes. What the article leaves out is that Naoto decides that she doesn't like the skirt and decides to go back to wearing men's clothes because that's what she's comfortable with.

On the whole, I feel like this was an extremely biased article was about shaming a character who didn't fit the author's expectations.

[riicchan.livejournal.com]

A-fucking-men. The author seriously missed the entire god damn point that Persona 4 was trying to present.

In my opinion, Naoto is as confused about their identity, gender or otherwise, as Kanji is about his sexuality and Rise is about her libido. And to label Naoto as trans just smacks of Social Justice appropriation.

Not to mention the fact that the author tries to label Erica from Catherine as a deceitful "trap" stereotype. Erica isn't trying to deceive ANYONE--she just wants to be seen as a woman, because that is who she is. The only person that has a problem with her biological sex is a preestablished naive young man that is more concerned with physical appearances than actual emotion. Also, her group of friends, who knew her pre-transition, use proper pronouns around her. The only guy that doesn't only misgenders her deliberately to insult her.

Bleh.

[insanepurin.livejournal.com]

The blog did a review on Catherine too. (http://borderhouseblog.com/?p=5965)

Now Catherine, I've actually played and beaten. (Once, but I watched a friend get the True Katherine Ending, and we watched the rest of the endings on YouTube) One of the complaints the article brought up was how "heteronormative" the game was. I'll likely be shot for saying this, but the major theme about this game is the relationships between men and women. If it was about relationships and sex in general (including homo/bisexuality) and the straight relationships got the most attention over the homosexual ones (aka But Not Too Gay), I'd understand being miffed. But the story centers around Vincent and his feelings for Katherine & Catherine, and the idea he has to grow up and be responsible for his own choices. The Freedom/Order meter doesn't represent "good" or "bad." It's not so much "you need to settle down and get married 'cause that's the good thing to do" as much as "What do you really want? Stop being idle and think about what actually matters to you most, whether it's settling down and getting married or not." The article outright admits they only played one of the endings, so it neglects a couple of the endings where Vincent ends up with neither of the girls and starts a new life solo post-game, and he's perfectly fine with it.

Regarding Erica, the poster thought, "OMG Thomas Mutton is giving her nightmares because he's implying that she's still a man." Which goes back to the argument how "heteronormative" Mutton is. And that's the thing: Mutton is the fucking villain. Of course his views regarding heterosexuality are skewed. So his views on Erica are skewed too. You're saying the Atlus staff shares the same views as the central antagonist? Dang, so much for Vincent calling out on Mutton.

[riicchan.livejournal.com]

Wow, looking at the rest of the blog is just disgusting. People shouldn't write stuff like that about what they don't know. It's like Christwire but for social issues. :/ A seriuos step backward.

[valkyriur.livejournal.com]

This blog gleefully ignores context regularly. I can't stand it.

[insanepurin.livejournal.com]

I was hoping someone else who played the game would offer their perspective on this. Not being familiar with the Persona series, it really helps that someone looks at them from an informative and logical standpoint. Homophobia/Transphobia/Misogyny is horrible, so when there's Unfortunate Implications in games/media/etc, of course we'd be angry. Yet part of me wonders if we're looking too hard to look for Unfortunate Implications in probably innocuous games (which may be exploring an entirely different theme altogether, like what seems to be the case with Naoto based on what you describe) and shoving them in with games that actually ARE homophobic/transphobic/misogynist/etc.

What the article leaves out is that Naoto decides that she doesn't like the skirt and decides to go back to wearing men's clothes because that's what she's comfortable with.

See, I would've appreciated knowing something like this. That gives me a whole lot more ease than just leaving me with the assumption that Naoto is reduced to a fanservice object if the player demands it.

[levikitty.livejournal.com]

It's totally right to be wary if you hear bad things about a work! I, too, moan the lack of a good portrayal of minorities in media. The author of that article, like a large number of the people who played this game, tried to make Naoto their transgender idol and were disappointed. And sadly, because of this, I often see quite a bit of misogyny and stereotypes that comes with that disappointment. ("She can't possibly be a girl!") I've seen people complain that Naoto doesn't sit and moan about gender 24/7, that her only defining trait as a character should be that she's trans, or that being a girl somehow makes her less of a character.

Persona 4's fandom is...rather unique about the issues the characters face. I see it as a well meaning fandom, but one that gets a little too wrapped up in its good intentions and ends up taking huge steps backwards. Other examples of this include the Kanji mentioned in the article, many people wanted him to be gay so badly they actually end up saying some really nasty bisexual erasure rhetoric. People cheered for Yukiko to have a choice about her life, but when she made the choice that they didn't agree with, suddenly everything is wrong and how dare she choose the option they wouldn't have. Persona 4 is pretty good at taking characters in directions you might not expect, and that's where a lot of the anger towards it comes from.

It's certainly not a perfect game, and there is the fair share of fanservice, (there is definitely at least one scene that serves no purpose but to put Chie and Yukiko in swimsuits) in Naoto's case, they at least built up to it reasonably and you have the option to skip it if you so choose.

[riicchan.livejournal.com]

That's a huge issue I have with a lot of so-called "progressive" and "social justice" blogs and the people that run them. They have... good intentions but just go way too far. Having fairly neutral and ambiguous outcomes for people like Kanji and Naoto is not enough for them. They have to be gay, they have to be trans, because otherwise it's not "good enough." I'd argue that remaining confused and becoming comfortable with that uncertainty is entirely realistic. People struggle with their sexuality and identity for years. But they call it bad writing at best and homophobia/transphobia at worst.

The hatred of Yukiko's choice makes me especially sick. It smacks of militant feminists that shit on women for wanting to be stay-at-home mothers and raise children. The choice is what matters, but that doesn't matter to them.

[valkyriur.livejournal.com]

The hatred of Yukiko's choice makes me especially sick. It smacks of militant feminists that shit on women for wanting to be stay-at-home mothers and raise children. The choice is what matters, but that doesn't matter to them

I see this all the time and I get so angry about it!

[insanepurin.livejournal.com]

I've seen people complain that Naoto doesn't sit and moan about gender 24/7, that her only defining trait as a character should be that she's trans, or that being a girl somehow makes her less of a character.

Hell, if there's one thing I can't stand as much as LGBT discrimination, it's pedantic "gay message" fiction and poster-children. Nothing turns me off faster than a character who's entire existence is to go, "WAAAAAH WAAAAAAH I'M SO DIFFERENT EVERYONE HATES ME LIFE IS SO UNFAIIIIIIR *ANGST ANGST*" (Limyaael better explains it here (http://limyaael.livejournal.com/214314.html) at #7) LGBT, women and minorities are people and it makes no sense to paint them as "perfect." Realistically, it's not all they think about. I'm a woman, and my entire existence and personality doesn't revolve around me thinking, "Oh my god, I'm such a woman, look at how feminine I am and the ways I'm not. GIRL GIRL GIRLY THINGS GIRL."

I see it as a well meaning fandom, but one that gets a little too wrapped up in its good intentions and ends up taking huge steps backwards. Other examples of this include the Kanji mentioned in the article, many people wanted him to be gay so badly they actually end up saying some really nasty bisexual erasure rhetoric.

I've seen this in other fandoms too! "Oh my god, how dare she like _____ when she's shown interest in ______!" without thinking that hey, she might like both boys and girls rather than just "switching back and forth" and that a love interest isn't "evil" based on their sexuality.

[kitty-advanced.livejournal.com]

I'm late to this because I had to find a way to comment without going into a rant (which I might blog later) so:

Hell, if there's one thing I can't stand as much as LGBT discrimination, it's pedantic "gay message" fiction and poster-children. Nothing turns me off faster than a character who's entire existence is to go, "WAAAAAH WAAAAAAH I'M SO DIFFERENT EVERYONE HATES ME LIFE IS SO UNFAIIIIIIR *ANGST ANGST*" (Limyaael better explains it here at #7) LGBT, women and minorities are people and it makes no sense to paint them as "perfect." Realistically, it's not all they think about. I'm a woman, and my entire existence and personality doesn't revolve around me thinking, "Oh my god, I'm such a woman, look at how feminine I am and the ways I'm not. GIRL GIRL GIRLY THINGS GIRL."

Four/five words: Character first, gender/sexuality second.

There's nothing wrong with gay/trans characters. I've done both. But at the end of the day, they aren't solely defined by well, being gay or transitioning. Obviously they will do that stuff, but not every sentence is something like "Let's go to the movies btw I'm gay and/or transitioning".

It's ok to have your characters point out they are gay or transitioning. But I want characters that say "I am a strong, independent, multifaceted protagonist* whose also gay/trans." Don't define them solely by their gender or sexuality, make it a part of a larger picture.

* - I am now wondering about a lack of gay antagonists. Has anyone written one that's more than a thinly veiled attempt at "They are evil because they are gay"?

Gays can be evil too. I can't help thinking that there are members of the LGBT community that are saddened by the lack of strong gay villians.

[valkyriur.livejournal.com]

I don't know anything about this game(?) you're talking about, but I have problems with that particular blog in general. I've been linked to their articles before and end up rolling my eyes at their misunderstanding of the games they are supposed to be critiquing.

As expressed by the commenter above me, they don't read between the lines. They just take things at face value. They're like the person the other day who said they didn't like "The Hunger Games" because of all the kids killing kids when that's the point. Or the person said about "The Giver" killing the imperfect infants is sick and therefore the book was sick when, again, that's the point.

[insanepurin.livejournal.com]

Which articles in particular?

I'm reminded of the conversation I had with kitty_advanced regarding Huckleberry Finn. GUESS WHAT, KIDS. YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE UNCOMFORTABLE WHEN YOU READ THE N-WORD. IT'S A GODDAMN SLUR. THAT'S TWAIN'S INTENTION. TO SHOW HOW *BAD* WE TREAT BLACK PEOPLE.

Boy, those people whining about Hunger Games and The Giver are sure gonna enjoy the barbaric children in Lord of the Flies. :P

[valkyriur.livejournal.com]

My example is the game "Bayonetta".

Most of the sexualization of Bayonetta is tongue-in-cheek. She's always making cheeky comments to her enemies and she thinks it's hilarious. They are not amused; in fact, they are very put out by it. She enjoys her body and she knows how to use it. I don't see what's wrong with that. She's confident and she uses her skills and her body as a weapon.

The authors of that blog accuse the creator of oversexualizing Bayonetta, yet there's this article talking about how the creator of Bayonetta is upset over character pornography, which makes me think he meant to create a sex positive and confident woman. Not a sex object.

[kitty-advanced.livejournal.com]

are sure gonna enjoy the barbaric children in Lord of the Flies. :P

Oh man we watched the movie in high school and we made the teacher rewind the part when Piggy gets off. My class was are terrible people.

[valkyriur.livejournal.com]

:( I hope it was just immaturity and they grew to be better people as they got older.